Saturday, May 17, 2008

Literally the Bible

So based on some of the comments I’ve been getting I can tell that some people have a problem thinking that God can convey truth by telling stories that aren’t factually true. Like I said before, I believe that in the book of Genesis God uses stories and poetry to communicate things to humankind that are far too complicated for us to understand. For instance, I interpret the creation poem and the story of Adam and Eve as explaining why we are here instead of how we got here. I don’t think these events took place in a literal sense but I do believe God is using a story or a poem to explain to us something that happened in the past - that God created people to be in a relationship with Him, those people were deceived, and they walked away from Him. Without even being factually true, this really does explain why the world is the way it is and why people are the way they are - but I do not have time to go into that now.

This creates a problem for people because of the belief that when God expresses himself in all of scripture, His word is true in every single way – including factually. In other words, God can’t (or won’t) use a fictional story to express truth. Anything God says has to be literally true as well as true in every other sense. One person went as far as to say that because I don’t take these stories as literal fact, I don’t even believe the word of God.

So let’s think about this for a second. God using simple stories that aren’t factually true to explain complicated and heavenly ideas to people who wouldn’t understand otherwise – this never happens in the Bible, right?

Well, you see, there was this one time when God came to earth and taught people about spirituality, heaven, and things like that. He was called Jesus, and they say he spoke in parables – stories and allegories that compare spiritual things to simple, understandable things. He was trying to get simple human beings to understand heavenly concepts, and the way he did this was never by communicating them in literal, scientific ways. Instead he said things like this:

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

“I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God until he is born again.”

“The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds in the air come and make nests in its branches.”

And then there are the stories.

At one point in Jesus’ ministry he is teaching his disciples to continue praying and not lose heart, so he tells a story about a widow who kept going to a judge and asking for justice in her case. The judge kept refusing her but she stayed persistent, and finally the judge gave her the justice she kept asking for.

At another time Jesus tells a story of a man who hoarded up all his crops in huge barns so he could “relax, eat, drink, and be merry.” But then God tells him he is going to die that night, and makes the point that those crops and barns won’t be his anymore. He concludes by saying, “So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”

You will rarely find Jesus explaining Godly concepts to people without using stories or comparisons. In fact, when Jesus actually stops using the parables and speaks plainly, the disciples seem to be incredibly surprised. They are often confused by these parables and a lot of times they don’t seem to get it, but still that is the way that Jesus chose to teach.

So if we can accept that Jesus, who was also God, could teach by using stories and comparisons that weren’t exactly true in the most absolute, factual way (Jesus was not literally a vine), then why do we have such a problem accepting that this is the way God chose to teach us in other parts of the Bible? Jesus happened to be pretty fond of this method. Doesn’t it make sense that when the Bible was being written God (who was also Jesus) would communicate this way as well?

I think the reason that God does this is because you can’t fit things such as God or the kingdom of heaven into human language. There are spiritual concepts that exist that are so complicated and big that it would be impossible to use words to describe them. It would be like an ant trying to understand the human brain. For instance, how do you literally and scientifically explain the love of God? Well, you can’t. You can just use a poetic expression to describe a characteristic of God’s love, but you can’t say anything that will encompass it. So in the Bible you will see verses that say things such as “For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him.” And when God explains how He relates to us, He uses metaphors like a father and child, a sheep and shepherd, and a bride and a groom. That is the only way we will understand it.

As far as shaping their beliefs and opinions, some people will actually say, “Well, I just believe what the Bible says.” They say that like the Bible is absolutely clear and obvious in its meaning, like there is no room for interpretation at all. Well, it’s not that easy.

Anyone who reads the Bible is interpreting it in some way. This is one reason we have all sorts of different denominations – same Bible, different interpretations. In one random and completely unrelated circumstance, a person may say that if someone doesn’t agree with what he and his professor believe, then that person doesn’t believe the word of God at all (hypothetically speaking). Some may say that they take the entire Bible literally, but that’s probably not true. I mean, who believes that when Paul talked about a “thorn in the flesh” he was literally talking about a thorn that got stuck in his side? I mean, sure, maybe Paul was walking through the woods one day and he accidentally walked into a particularly nasty thorn bush. Those things are hard to get out if they’re deep and you don’t have some tweezers, and they do hurt. I would plead with God 3 times too if it was me. But I have this hunch that that’s not exactly what Paul meant by the thorn.

In Revelations, when John is writing about the vision God has given him, does he mean all that literally? Or do we interpret the stories and metaphors to mean something else?

You see, nobody really takes the entire Bible literally. Some may take more parts literally than others. I may take less of the Bible literally than another person does. But does that mean I believe the Bible any less than that person does, or that I don’t believe it at all? No, and to imply that in any sort of way is a very arrogant statement to make in my opinion.

Some things in this world are simply better expressed by stories or poetry. They are more meaningful that way. Donald Miller has this great example of this and I’m going to borrow it.

Say you are a girl (if you’re not already) and you’re dating some guy. You go out to eat and he has this candlelit dinner prepared for you and everything is all romantic and such. Well, you’re having a pretty good conversation and then after a while he stops and he just sort of looks at you. And then after a few seconds he pulls out a paper and pen and he starts to write. He glances up at you every few seconds and then he goes back to writing. After a few minutes he finishes, puts down his pen, turns the paper face down, and slides it over to you. You pick up the paper and start to read, and this is what it says:

You have brown hair.
You have brown eyes.
You are approximately 5 foot 6.
Your skin is a dark tan color.

You would be saying “What in the world is this?!” And he would say, “Well, it’s true! What have you got against truth? Those are all true facts!”

But let’s say that instead of that last list, what he wrote was more like this Shakespeare poem:

Had I this cheek
To bathe my lips upon; this hand, whose touch,
Whose every touch, would force the feeler's soul
To the oath of loyalty; this object, which
Takes prisoner the wild motion of mine eye

Well, it means something different, doesn’t it? It expresses things that simple facts could not even come close to. You see, God invented the human being, and God knows that a person responds to more than just the literal facts of existence. So since God knows this, why would he limit his expression to only a logical and factual explanation of how he created the world? And I would ask why would he even need to include that?

Before the enlightenment, the church actually used art such as poetry, drawings, and music to teach spirituality. Before the invention of the printing press most people couldn’t read, so the church used these forms of art to communicate the gospel of Christ. Old church cathedrals were built shaped like crosses and all kinds of artwork was put into the windows and on the walls to depict various Bible stories. This was one of the main ways of communicating the gospel back then.

When the enlightenment came, the definition of truth became very limited. People reduced truth to something you could fit into your head. At this time, truth became something that was reached through logical arguments and mathematical equations, and art such as poetry was thrown out of the picture. For the Christian, this should be ridiculous because Jesus said he is the way, the truth, and the life. However, the church adopted this assumption as well, and what they did was begin to look at the Bible through the lenses of science. And now people either interpret the poetic and narrative forms as literal truth or they just skip over them altogether. Don’t believe me? Well, when was the last time you heard a sermon preached on the Song of Solomon?

This goes back to that poem analogy. Some things you just can’t express through simple fact. You have to use another form of expression. G.K. Chesterton once wrote that it is the mathematician, not the poet, who goes mad because the mathematician tries to build a bridge over the infinite and the poet just swims in the sea. I say this because it is easy to reduce stories and poems to senseless and truth less forms of expression, which many people do to a fault. Jesus used stories all the time, and I believe God has and still does use them to communicate to our hearts today.

24 comments:

Anonymous said...

I didn't read the whole ting, I want to, and I will come back later. I just don't have time at the moment.

Jesus SAYS that the parables are not true stories, they just have spiritual morals.
Then in Revelation, I don't take all of that literally because they were DREAMS, and he said that. But no where in Genesis does God imply that what he says is not factual truth. I actually feel like we keep coming back to the same things. We are never going to convince each other of our beliefs. I just thought I would put mine out there.
And I would also like to say, not completely in the defense of the anonymous person, but just as a fact. He never said that you could not be a Christian if you did not believe scripture as literal words. He said "But to put it bluntly, if ONE cannot believe in the Word of the Lord, ONE can not believe in the power of the Lord. I don't know, because I don't know his MIND, but what he wrote down was not accusing YOU but ANYONE. And I think he just meant miracles, that you cannot believe in miracles if you do not believe in the word of the Lord. But you DO believe in the Word of the Lord, just in a different way...so I don't think he was implying anything towards you.

I just wanted to get that straightened out, don't take it the wrong way. :)

andy said...

i think that you bring up good points matt. i do think that God speaks in a variety of ways in scripture (and in our lives) to convey very complex truths. the key, i guess, is what danielle touched on. how do we know which parts are stories and what is history?

another thing to consider is the context in which the book of genesis (and all of the bible) was written. to the original hearers of this book, would it have been obvious what God's intentions were? like, if it is just a story, would they have recognized that, and we have trouble seeing that because we are children of the enlightenment (which elevated factual truth to the highest form of truth).

just throwing that out there.

Anonymous said...

First point to consider, look at Genesis 2:4 “This IS the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the e3arth and the heavens.” So, you telling me that got utterly lied to us? I don’t think so buddy. You could say that Moses lied to us, but you got to remember, God used and flowed through man to write the Bible, God used man as a tool for His Creation. So, having said that, I think it is accurately said that “But to put it bluntly, if ONE cannot believe in the Word of the Lord, ONE can not believe in the power of the Lord” Saying that God didn’t create the earth and the heavens the way He said He did just underestimates God, and one doesn’t want to underestimate God’s Power.

Also, I’m curious to know, even though I probably already know your response because I have been in countless arguments like this where I convinced 8 out of 11 people to the true view, If God did not create man the way He said He did, the where did man come from? Tell me that please genius.

As for most of those quotes you posted form the Bible, if you can’t understand those than you need some serious help. God IS the light of the world in a certain way, it is iffy if He is physically the light of the world because you have the Sun, but you know what, God created the Sun! God is the light in the eyes of experience and wisdom. He and only He can open your eyes to see the world as it is, to know how to be faithful and to worship, etc… One could say that it is a metaphor, but a person with knowledge of understanding and experience would know the difference. The same could be said in each and every single one of those quotes. One just has to meditate on them and open your mind to it and open your heart to the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

I really do respect you freedom of expression and your opinions, however, I do believe you need to go through and reread all that you have read, and instead with a closed mind, open your mind to other options. Personally, I have seen all the information available to man, so, I guess you could say that, through personal experiences and viewing scientific reasoning, I fully support the Adam and Eve account and the Creation of the earth and the Heavens how it is explained in the Bible.

Here are a few links you can look at:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/cartoon.htm

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/wrong.htm

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/top.htm

http://www.creationfaq.net/

http://www.icr.org/research/

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stephanie said...

i don't view matt's opinion as closeminded in the slightest. the reason you see it that way is because you disagree, which, might i point out, is much more closeminded than anything matt has stated. in fact, matt's subjected himself to scrutiny by searching and finding a different way of thinking that is uncommon among local christians. that is quite openminded and brave, if you ask me.

anonymous commenter, it seems as though you are continually trying to verify your points without having given a thought to what matt is suggesting. you seem to be quite proud of yourself, and absolutely positive that your perception is of utmost adequacy. also closeminded.

the truth is, none of us are scientists, and there are good reasons for believing either way. even more-so, none of us are God, and believing we can validate any of this with what knowledge we have is simply unwise. regardless of how you view of the way we came about, you are no less like Jesus for it, and your belief in the bible is no less infallible. to see it differently is just a giant misinterpretation on the perceiver's part.

Ryan said...

Okay I disagree, but as far as organizing your thoughts go, you did well. I would like to give you that much credit, and I won't go out and say you can't be a Christian either. But organizing your thoughts well doesn't make you right, so let me in a nice way say why I disagree with you.

I agree whole heartedly that stories are important, and that sometimes a story or poetry is better than mere literal fact. And I also whole heartedly agree that we can not take every single word of the Bible the same - it gets down to interpretation. The Scriptures use not only metaphors, poems, and parables, but also figures of speach. For example, "The sun did not rise this day" (maybe the sun/earth relavent rotation stopped for so long as Scripture says, but the sun never literally rises. To the knowledge of the author that is what was how it was, so that's how he wrote it. But it is still true generally, even if not literally accurate scientifically.) Or consider Scripture saying, "The four corners of the earth." The same general thing. The earth has no corners, but it means figuratively throughout all the earth.

That was easy enough. Some are a little harder. Did the flood cover the entire world, or just the known world? Did Methuselah live 969 literal years the way we perceive today, or were the years back then shorter? I generally hold to the conservative view that it is as is written, but these are a bit trickier, so there are worse sins than to be off on something like that.

BUT SOME THINGS ARE TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY! I am sorry, but I do agree with anonymous (who I know quite well) in that you have taken this a bit too far. It's not so much that you may not take every single thing in Genesis 100% true, but that you seem to question the entire book as well as perhaps many other books. I know people, one of whom I think even goes to my church, who may not fully believe in a six-day creation account. I do, but I suppose the issue is to a degree debateable. But when you go out on a limb and say that God created molecules to make a big bang; that no real remnant of the Adam and Eve story happened; and that perhaps the rest of the book of Genesis (and perhaps the Exodus as well) is false, then you might could say that the ressurrection is just a story to help us grasp things better. Parables are told as an explainable story to help explain an unexplainable story. So why would Jesus tell parables if this wasn't real truth? And if this is real truth, how come it can't be as seen in Genesis and what is to come in the end? The parables are pointless without some real backing to it.

The story of Adam and Eve is like this: Man was created good, and then fell. Therefore, man is now fallen. Of course this points us to our redemption in Christ. Without a real Fall, how does the Fall affect the entire human race so radically? One ape/man or fully developed man, or whatever could have sinned, while another never sinned.

The story of Adam and Ever is very powerful, but systematic. Why would God choose some other story to be true (and then confuse us by stating that this IS the account, when it is not)?

And if you accept Jesus's incarnation, Deity, humanity, perfectness (if that's a word), death and ressurrection for our sins (which if you do, I do not doubt your salvation), then why say Adam and Eve was made up? I mean Jesus' death and ressurrection makes for a greater symbolic parable than most anything else. BUT IT IS TRUE. AND HOW GREAT IT IS WHEN THE GREATEST STORY EVER IS TRUE AND RECORDED FOR US BY THE LIVING GOD!

I do not mean to sound mean, and I do respect your opinions, and your time to write them on here. I am just telling you things from my perspective. It's one thing if you say, "Perhaps Creation was not six literal days." It's another to throw the entire book of Genesis (if not more) into doubt. Some parts of the Bible are meant as parables, but others are meant as real and true history. Gensises, though symbolic and relavent today in its symbolism, was still real history just like the history of our nation, your history, or the history of all of Western Civilization. And if our nation has real history recorded to us by our founders, why should God, much more powerful than the greatest American ever, fail to give us a real account of our history?

Just my thoughts, and thanks for reading

God bless

Ryan

andy said...

it is real easy to comment and attack a person's viewpoint and character behind the mask of anonymity, isn't it? if you can't find a way to express your views generously and with a christian heart, then please move along to some other discussion.

i know matt well. i love him like a brother. i also know that he does not take his faith lightly, and therefore any view he has has been subjected to much scrutiny. to suggest otherwise, when you don't even know him, is ridiculous. i know that he respects those of other viewpoints, so i would ask any commenters to do the same.

Ryan said...

I would not have said it quite as anonymous did, but I do know this young man (anonymous), and I'll just say that he is known for being up front about what he thinks. He is not condemning anyone to Hell, he just states his thoughts a bit more up front than most people. If everyone was like this, that may be pretty bad, but maybe we need a few people like this.

But let me point something out the the latest comment by Stephbenton:

>>in fact, matt's subjected himself to scrutiny by searching and finding a different way of thinking that is uncommon among local christians.<<

So is Matt going out and looking for something different? An alternative? As if he is looking for an alternative...this presents that even Matt himself has some biases going in (the myth of netrality). We really all do, so in a sense, while open-mindedness is good, we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can be completely open-minded.

Just something to think about

God bless

Ryan, Elizabeth's brother

andy said...

by the way, those of you who have disagreed with matt and have done so charitably (danielle, ebeth, ryan, etc.), you have my utmost respect. i have purposely played my cards close to the vest so as to not sway the conversation one way or the other (since i am youth minister to a few of you), but obviously i agree with one side. but i do admire matt and the others mentioned for having spirited debate without resorting to sarcasm or personal attacks.

as for anonymous, i do respect your view. i would just like a little more charity in its expression. since this is a written medium, please weigh every word to see how it would sound before you post it.

not trying to be a jerk or anything, i just want ALL viewpoints to be expressed (conversation is important) and all people respected.

Anonymous said...

I just have one more question that I want Matt to answer.
If Adam and Eve are not to be taken a literal people, that whole story did not happen, it is just God's way of helping us to understand...then what about Cane and Abel...and the next generation, and Abraham, and Moses, and David...and Jesus? I mean, if you say there was never an Adam or Eve, the how did the rest of the people in the Bible come to exist? Just a question, but I would like an answer. :)

Elizabeth said...

haha Danielle, i was going to ask the same question. But you got to it first.

Matt Benton said...

Danielle, to quickly address your question I will say that I think the real history of it starts with either Noah or Abram. We pretty much have to acknowledge Moses is a real person because he wrote Genesis and a few other books. One thing to note is that it is commonly believed that Moses wrote the book of Job first, even before Genesis. I don't believe Job as a literal, historical account either, but a story. Now on the other hand, books like Exodus, Deuteronomy, 1 & 2 Chronicles, 1 & 2 Kings are history books and they are meant to be taken that way. So characters such as David, Joshua, Moses, etc. were all real people. Jesus is a historical figure even without the Bible. There is more evidence that Jesus was a real person than there is for a lot of other historical figures.

One thing I've always wondered about the Cain and Abel story is this: If Adam and Eve were the first 2 human beings, that would make Cain and Abel the 3rd and 4th, right? Well, after Cain kills Abel, God sends him away and he goes to the land of Nod where he finds a wife. The obvious question is who did he get married to if there were only 3 people in existence at that point?

Anyways, I'm going to write another blog addressing this and some other issues that have been raised so I will try to explain it more thoroughly. But yeah, if there is anything else I need to address just let me know.

stephanie said...

">>in fact, matt's subjected himself to scrutiny by searching and finding a different way of thinking that is uncommon among local christians.<<

So is Matt going out and looking for something different? An alternative? As if he is looking for an alternative...this presents that even Matt himself has some biases going in (the myth of netrality). We really all do, so in a sense, while open-mindedness is good, we should not fool ourselves into thinking that we can be completely open-minded."


i'm not going to deny any sort of biased nature in myself, but i wasnt implying that in matt, as though his reasoning behind it was because he finds the creation story unsatisfactory. in fact, i wouldnt make assumptions about his reasoning at all, and i apologize if ive given that impression.

Anonymous said...

I give up. The more I dig deeper and try to prove you wrong the more you dig deeper and try to prove me wrong. I will never be able to prove you wrong and you will never be able to prove me wrong. So I have nothing else to say. :)

Ryan said...

Real quick to address Matt's question about how Abel found a wife:

Scripture does not mention any other children that Adam and Ever had, but it does not mention that they definetely had no other children either. They may have had 12 children and Moses only wrote of a few because they stood out the most or what not. Or the knowledge he had was only of just a few.

I know it sounds weird to marry your sister, but back then things were much different. With sin just coming into the world, diseases & stuff (sort of God's punishment for sin), was not as heavy. God had not listed out all his "marriage rules" either, so it would not have been quite as weird, perhaps.

But with evolution, how do we have male and female? And when did the first female cell, fish, or whatever mate with the male cell? The alternative is a lot harder to understand, defend, and explain.

Jerry said...

Matt,

I would loooovveee, I mean you don't know how much I would looooovvvveeee to write a long response here, but I just do not have the time to get involved to that level right now. I would encourage you to do a couple of things, though, that would be far more productive than my rambling could ever be.

1. Consider the possibility that you may be wrong. (I do not mean to imply that you deny that you could possibly be wrong, but it seems to this outsider that you are not even seriously considering the possibility that your detractors may be right)

2. This is my most important point. PLEASE Consider that actually denying the truth of the Genesis 1-3 account actually DOES have further theological implications. Major ones. This is where I could ramble all day!!!

Paul said that just as through "one man" sin came into the world, so through "one man" came redemption. Is it not dangerous to take one of these men as figurative, metaphorical, poetic, whatever, then demand that the other is real? What does it do to this "one man/one man" system of redemption if one of the "one men" is not even real? What does it mean to say we are sons of Adam? What does it mean that Jesus is the "Second Adam?"

What do we do with the Ten Commandments, God's supreme Law, which commands us to honor the sabbath day and keep it holy BECAUSE in six days God created heaven and earth and rested on the seventh. (Jesus himself, btw, repeats this six day / one day theme in the Gospels)

The creation story is not isolated from the whole of theology such that we can just believe or not believe whatever we choose or see as convenient about creation, and assume it has zero effects on our lives or with our walk with the actual CREATOR. It has major ramifications.

If we deny the reality of creation (as it is presented) Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, the serpant, the fall, etc. exactly how do we justify picking it up at some point later on in Genesis and saying "from this point on we can accept these as real people/events?" It can not just be because we arbitrarily like it that way or because it conveniently frees us from having to justify the difficult position of six day recent creation. There has to be a biblical reason. What is it?

Also consider that the Bible records the history of the world. It does so in this form: the history of the world can be seen as "Creation / Fall / Redemption" I can not fathom how difficult it would be to face the sinful world by preaching a real 'literal' redemption by a real 'literal' Redeemer, while saying this is based on a figurative creation and fall. It just does not make a compelling case. Does the Bible teach "Creation - (all figurative-poetic-metaphorical etc) / fall - (all figurative-poetic-metaphorical etc) / Redemption - (oh, this is real here!!)" Isn't that a difficult position to defend, much less to offer as the solution to the worlds ills?

Creation is foundational to all of theology. It is where we start (Literally!) Our theology, and therefore our practice, our walk, our real life where the rubber meets the road and where we interact with a world diseased with sin, is flawed when we have a flawed view of creation.

Please consider that IF you are wrong, it IS a serious matter. (If I am wrong it is a serious matter also, so my advice is to myself as well!)

3. Consider reading theologians who take the creation account seriously. I admit there are some conservative, six day young earth creationists out there that I would not take too seriously. Do not let the weaker theologians push you away from the whole idea, though. Again, as I did before, I would recommend to you James B. Jordan. Especially his work "Creation in Six Days" but really anything by him is excellent. He is absolutely not a person who holds to a 'wooden' literal interpretation of the Bible. In fact, he gets nailed by the literalists/fundamentalists, because he takes such a literary/poetic/metaphorical/etc view of the Word. He views the Bible in a literary fashion, seeing all sorts of literary devices such as poetry, parallelism, typology (which is incredibly important), chiastic structures, metaphor, and on and on. He sees much of this in the Genesis 1-3 accounts from which he derives tons of theological implicatons, yet he still holds that the only viable interpretation of the account is that God literally created the world in six literal days and coupled with the remainder of Genesis we can conclude that this was in modern terms not so very long ago. In addition to "Creation in Six Days," probably the foundational book of theology that I recommend above all others is "Through New Eyes" in which Jordan goes into great detail discussing the various forms of symbolism in the Bible, yet still teaches six day creation (This is not a book about creation, but about the whole Bible, but the creation story is discussed, I believe) Another place to look is Peter Leithart - esp "A House for My Name" which builds on Jordan's "Through New Eyes" while examining old testament history - including of course creation. Dr. Leithart has a Doctoral degree from Cambridge University so he is no theological lightweight. Cambridge is, of course, not exactly the hotbed of fundamentalism either.

These works are available on virtually any online seller (amazon, etc) or I can loan you my copies (if you promise to return them!!!!) Also, much of these guys and others writings are available at

www.biblicalhorizons.com.

So please, check out at least some serious academic theologians who hold to six day recent creation before you simply deny it.

Oh, dang, I ended up rambling and making a long reply after all. Sorry!!

Mr. H

Anonymous said...

Didn't Adam and Eve have a son named Seth too?

Anonymous said...

I might be a sarcastic rude guy, but you got my point. I guess since people have made it such a big deal i need to issue an apology. So, I'm sorry if i was rude to you in any form or fashion. Ive already stated that i fully respect your freedom and your opinions, so nobody else try to scrutinize for believing that I didn't respect him. However, let us agree to disagree. I fully and truely with all my heart believe that you are wrong in your statements with your viewpoints. I also beg of you to go back and do extensive research on the issue before you jump to conclusion like it appears you do in your first evolution blog. Your second blog just appears to be your stubborn side and just don't want to except the facts shown to you. therefore, i do believe your mind has been closed to this subject. however, once again, even though i do appear to be rude at times, i have a kind but hard heart and do not wish to make anybody mad and i apologize if I do.

Btw, i fully agree with Mr. Jerry's post, you should look into it.

andy said...

i think we all may be at an impasse. the comments and discussion generated have been good and good natured. anonymous, thank you for your words. i know they were not for me, but they were for my friend, and it helped me see you in a different light. i hope that nothing i said gave you the impression that i didn't respect your views. i do, even though i may not agree with them.

it is clear that nobody is going to convince anyone to change their minds. and maybe a blog shouldn't do that. i know that matt has considered this deeply and fully, and, at least for now, has come to a certain conclusion that is controversial. i believe this is in the interest of intellectual honesty. we don't have to have it all figured out, and i feel certain that we are all wrong about something. that being said, i respect matt's views, because i have drawn many of the same conclusions he has. but i also respect everyone else's opinions, because i (and matt) know that we may be wrong on this one. i do know that thinking outside of the traditional framework has opened up scripture to where i find the Story more beautiful and Jesus more compelling. hopefully, through all of our theological differences, we can find the common ground that is our Savior and seek to follow him more closely every day.

i know that it is not my decision to end the conversation, but we are getting close to rehashing the same arguments over and over. just something to consider.

andy

Ryan said...

I hate to keep adding comments, when like Andy said, we're not going to convince anyone on here to reach a different conclusion (at least I doubt it).

But to some up what I think, I'll give a couple of my tips for interpreting Scripture:

1): Defend, or perhaps better put, interpret Scripture with Scripture. What I mean is this: Don't prooftext all the time with a bunch of random verses; see how they fit into the broader context and how passages similar to them fit in with their context. This way you may figure out what they all mean.

2): Treat Scripture, and really, all of history past, present, and to come, as one story. I say this, and believe it helps my point and Jerry's point (my Dad), that rejecting the creation account has serious ramifications for other theology. How can you believe "Happily ever after" if you do not believe "In the beginning?" Of course my Dad expounded on this, and I think did a good job.

I know that we have been saying the same stuff, so I feel guilty rambling on. But this has got my interest to perhaps write a blog of my own, not necesarily for yall, though it could be if you want further discussion, but for anyone else, to see what they have to say.

And BTW Danielle, I am pretty sure that Adam and Eve DID have a son named Seth. But I think we could all stand to go re-read Genesis some. And also, perhaps I'm wrong, but I think that Scripture says, that Adam and Eve lived so long and that they had "sons and daughters." Maybe I'm wrong about that though.

Ryan said...

Okay one more thing...well, two, actually:

Genesis 5:3-5: "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image, and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether Adam lived 930 years, and then he died."

So yes, Adam and Eve did have a son named Seth. And apparently had other sons and daughters as well.

One more point to consider then maybe I'll shut up. I don't know about the Hebrew writings, if this shows signs of poetry or not, I haven't studied that yet. But if it is poetry, why do we see random dates and ages and so forth? We see 930, for example. Why not round numbers since it's just poetry?

Ryan, Elizabeth's Brother

stephanie said...

to be honest, as someone who is rather neutral in understanding theist evolution or creationism, ive found myself unmoved from my position on the fence.

that being said, this discussion is getting circular, and the only conclusion i can draw is that we don't know, and we aren't going to know.

Anonymous said...

correction to the above: when we die and join our Father, all our questions will be revealed to us. So, we will eventually know the answeres, now whether it matters or not that we know when we inter Heaven is a different story in itself.

stephanie said...

sure, but now youre just being picky.